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Forum:Multi-Word Capitalization
Recently, a capitalization change I made to 'sword beams' (I lower-cased it) on the Wooden Sword page was reversed w/ the comment "Actually linked to as a noun everywhere else." In fact, 'sword beams' is a noun either way; upper-casing it simply makes it a proper noun, which makes no more sense than does upper-casing 'arrows' or 'foot switches': both are commonly occurring items that bear no individual distinction from one another, whereas a proper noun denotes one specific, unique thing. However, since 'foot switch' actually is being upper-cased most of the time here, as are most other compound (multi-word) nouns, I thought this a good opportunity to bring up the issue in general rather than simply reinstate my edit. So, does anyone know why we do this? I’d previously noticed that a link to a multi-word page (like Foot Switch) would fail if it was lower-cased w/in the brackets, & assumed that because of this, people had gotten into the habit of upper-casing these words all the time. However, if we’re capitalizing them deliberately rather than out of habit, we’re doing so in error. It gets debatable w/ things like Fire Arrows, but certainly soft soil, empty bottles, & several others have no right being referred to as proper nouns. I've just been lower-casing these words as I come across them while editing, and linking to them as such: lower-case. Is it okay to continue doing so? I think the main worry here is that lower-casing them will create inconsistency, as there are many cases of these words being capitalized currently; but a.) that doesn’t strike me as the best reason to continue a grammatically incorrect practice on an encyclopedic website, & b.) this could actually be straightened out fairly quickly if we all just fix instances of it as we encounter them while editing. Doing so would also require very minimal effort on our part. So yeah, another thing that probably 2.5 people besides me give a hoot about, but for better or worse, this is the type of stuff I notice. Thoughts? Knives182 (talk) 03:36, July 8, 2011 (UTC) :For future reference, you should've known better than to go against what is usually done, regardless of your own personal viewpoint or if they conflict with grammatical rules, without prior discussion. Anyway, in my opinion, considering the Zelda series almost unanimously refers to multi-word items and suches as nouns, no reason to believe other items aren't meant to be referred to as such. And it makes it easier for the page naming to stay consistent for users using the search function. We're on opposite ends of the OCD curbing spectrum here looks like. --AuronKaizer ''' 13:22, July 8, 2011 (UTC) ::To start w/, sorry for going against the norm w/ the sword beams thing. I did actually ask about this several months ago, though. I got a response from FD saying as far as he knew we followed regular capitalization rules, & a response from you which suffered from some terminology issues—again, capitalizing things makes them '''proper nouns; they're nouns either way. I asked for clarification but didn't receive any, so I'd just been going by what FD suggested and practicing standard capitalization. I'd received no complaints until now, at which point I stopped and brought the matter up again. ::As for the issue itself, maybe I'm not checking the right search function, but the one I just tested works regardless of capitalization. And while I'm down w/ capitalizing things that are presented as such in-game, the Zelda series has actually been quite inconsistent w/ its use of capitalization (of both single- & multi-word nouns) over the years, & even within individual games. So gleaning some standard w/ which we could confidently predict how they would've capitalized something not mentioned in-game (I'm looking at you, switches) is problematic. Given that, I have to think the best way to handle such things is to defer to common sense & correct English. (Btw, I checked a text dump & soft soil actually is mentioned in-game & is never capitalized...so we can lower-case that one on good conscience, I think.) ::Not sure if this is necessary, but before I end this post I just want to clarify that (now & in general) I'm in no way trying to be argumentative or stubborn, but am just trying to present my point to the best of my ability. I'm fully aware that others may not agree w/ me on this or any given issue, & that is totally fine. So, yeah, just don't want to be "that guy". Thanks. Knives182 (talk) 03:25, July 10, 2011 (UTC) :::It doesn't hurt to clarify that, I think a lot of us without meaning it end up coming off a little like "that guy" at some point or another (and that's not to say I was getting that impression from you). It's just a side effect of constantly having healthy debates about things, while not having the tone of voice or inflection or facial expression you'd have in person. It makes it easier to misread people. And I'm not sure if the sword beam thing you did went against standards (mostly because I don't think that a standard existed, but that may just be me being ignorant of it). :::Anyway, I think I'm going to have to stick to what I said earlier and say we should use standard capitalization when Zelda is not clear about it. If the games consistently give us an exception to normal language rules, I think we should use it. Fire/Ice/Light Arrows for example might always be capitalized I think, even though I don't think normal english would do that. I'm not certain they're always capitalized though so don't change anything just based on that. But with things like bombs, arrows, etc., we're just not given a consistent set of rules to work with. I also think that giving things with pages capitalized names is just not something we can do consistently. Can we expect people to remember to go against normal english and capitalize arrow or foot switch even when they're not making a link out of it? What if it's not an arrow that is talked about on the arrow page (i.e. an enemy firing some other kind of arrow as opposed to Link's item)? What happens when we make generically named pages like vine, ladder, door, dog, sword, etc.; do we retroactively capitalize every instance of the word door? It's just too complicated to keep track of that many non-english rules, especially since they will change over time. Plus it would start to look downright unprofessional if every random object in our articles is capitalized for no apparent reason. I think that with anything, single word or two, we should use standard english capitalization except in those rare cases that the games present us with an exception that is actually consistent.--[[User:Fierce Deku|'Fierce']][[User talk:Fierce Deku|'Deku']] 04:56, July 11, 2011 (UTC) Anyone else have an opinion on this? Essentially, the question is: for words we have pages for but that are never actually written out in-game, do we capitalize all instances of them automatically, or only if they warrant it according to regular English? Foot Switch or foot switch; Pot or pot? Knives182 (talk) 01:35, July 19, 2011 (UTC) :I would prefer using lowercase letters since that is how conventional English works. Generally, we tend to leave non-linked multi-word subjects non-capitalized anyway, so doing the same for links would be more consistent and would look more professional. Of course, as I'm sure many of you know, I rank pretty high on the OCD spectrum with regards to grammar, but that's how I see this. Also, it's worth noting that while multi-word page links must be capitalized, the words in the search function never need to be capitalized. Jedimasterlink (talk) 05:33, July 19, 2011 (UTC) Sorry if this is stated somewhere & I missed it, but is there a minimum number of responses required before acting on something? I'm assuming the three here aren't enough. Thanks. Knives182 (talk) 02:50, July 27, 2011 (UTC) :Heh, oh yay, one of my favorite topics. Unfortunately no, there is no pre-defined standard for when it's ok to do something. It's hard to define something like that anyway because each situation demands a different level of attention depending on how big a deal it is. It's sort of a mush of how significant the action is/how much opposition and support it has/how likely is it that someone else will ever respond. Like if this gets bumped 50 times and nothing happens we might just call 3 to 1 good enough and do it. A while ago I did suggest a set of rules under which something could be unequivocally accepted and executed, but that topic, ironically, didn't get enough discussion to reach a conclusion. It's standards of how many people need to vote are also very steep at least by our activity trends at the moment (maybe it's a summer thing). I really wish we just had some way to tell if people just couldn't get to a topic/didn't see it vs if they simply don't intend to post about it. Then we could at least know when it's appropriate to make a call based on what's already been said.--[[User:Fierce Deku|'Fierce']][[User talk:Fierce Deku|'Deku']] 03:30, July 27, 2011 (UTC) As this is essentially my third bump due to inactivity, I'm getting the impression that most people aren't especially concerned w/ this topic (shocking!). So, if anyone does have an opinion & hasn't stated it yet, now would be a good time to do so. Knives182 (talk) 03:32, August 3, 2011 (UTC) I don't know exactly how to approach this, I'm not native English, anyway I do support capitalization, the games seem to use it as we do. I'll think more about it. —'TheNewSheik' 04:37, August 7, 2011 (UTC) Okay then, looks to me like the verdict here is to follow in-game capitalization when a consistent standard is given, & to follow standard grammar when the games are inconsistent or never actually spell out a word. Sound good? Knives182 (talk) 15:41, August 10, 2011 (UTC) :Not really. --AuronKaizer ''' 10:30, September 7, 2011 (UTC) ::Considering that the opinions are currently (still) split 3-2, I don't think we can really justify an action yet. Jedimasterlink (talk) 12:39, September 7, 2011 (UTC) I THINK WE SHOULD CAPITALIZE EVERYTHING.—Triforce' ' 14' 14:12, September 7, 2011 (UTC) :::K, sorry for jumping the gun; as we all know, it can be very hard to tell when a discussion is considered closed & ready to act on around here. If we're still waiting for more opinions, though, I really don't know what more I can do than bump the thread three times, say "if anyone does have an opinion & hasn't stated it yet, now would be a good time to do so", AND wait a full month after asking for objections before acting. We don't want to wait around interminably for replies that aren't coming, as too many threads have faded into obscurity that way already. So what should I do? Knives182 (talk) 16:31, September 7, 2011 (UTC) ::::Seriously, I'm asking what can be done to move this toward a conclusion if it's not yet acceptable to act on the majority vote. Which, for anyone new, is simply that in rare cases where something is never written out in-game or is written inconsistently, we capitalize it in accordance w/ conventional logic/English/common sense, as opposed to blindly upper-casing it. Knives182 (talk) 16:40, September 9, 2011 (UTC) :::::Oppose, as always. --Auron'Kaizer ' 21:57, September 9, 2011 (UTC) :::::Maybe we need to go solicit input form other users, or someone can try to make a more convincing point for one side. I don't ''want to act on something that isn't decidedly agreed upon. However, in this case there is no middle ground, we need to choose one of these two options, so if there is no further conversation and all we can go by is majority vote, we really have no choice but to do so even if the majority is only slight. We can of course continue this topic at any point, but in the meantime we're just going to have to pick an arbitrary time at which to call it dead and use the standard which is slightly more supported.--[[User:Fierce Deku|'Fierce']][[User talk:Fierce Deku|'Deku']] 22:12, September 9, 2011 (UTC) ::::::FD, thanks for the constructive response. If you or anyone else have some users you'd feel comfortable asking for input on this, then definitely please do so. For my part, I'd feel like a bother posting on the userpages of people I don't really know, asking them about something I assume they don't care about. And I'll refrain from attempting to elaborate further on my point for now, as I don't want to take up more space saying essentially the same thing I already have. ::::::AK, if you'd like to actually answer my question of what can be done to move this thread forward, or make a case for your viewpoint on the matter, either would be welcome. Knives182 (talk) 17:55, September 10, 2011 (UTC) :::::::We could make it dependent on the grammatical article. For example, "the Improved Shield can..." versus "Link is given an improved shield", etc. Basically, "the" makes a proper noun, while "a", "an", "some", or no article makes a non-proper noun. -'Isdrak ' 18:31, September 10, 2011 (UTC) ::::::::I'm not required to answer it. You haven't brought up any new arguments that I can see, or made a sufficient reasoning as to why your alternative is preferable to the way things are done right now, thus not prompting me to make any "new" comments regarding it. If it frustrates you, try a new approach. --AuronKaizer ''' 10:13, September 11, 2011 (UTC) I'm with AK, keep it caps like it is now.—Triforce' ' 14' 04:45, September 11, 2011 (UTC) :Isdrakthul's suggestion is a pretty good guideline, if thinking generally. While common nouns can be accompanied by "the" in the right context ("If Link presses the foot switch in this room"), if you think about foot switches in general, it would be weird to call any one ''the foot switch; you'd just call it a'' foot switch. In fact, most anything that exists in multiples is bound to be a common noun, as the definition of a proper noun (the ones we capitalize) is basically that it's unique; there's only one of it. Knives182 (talk) 06:55, September 11, 2011 (UTC) ::The foot switch example is exactly why I don't think this is a good guideline. I don't entirely mind the idea of leaving the unique subjects as proper nouns, but determining this based on which article we use would result in inconsistency. Even then, I would prefer an all-or-nothing solution. To anyone who isn't aware of or can't determine the grammar rules we used to come up with these guidelines, it will look as if we have arbitrarily chosen to leave certain subjects in caps. So even if the rule makes grammatical sense, it would still look inconsistent. Jedimasterlink (talk) 21:11, September 11, 2011 (UTC) :Bleh. I guess this doesn't work after all. Never mind. -'Isdrak ' 22:44, September 11, 2011 (UTC) ::@ AK: You're correct that you're not ''required to contribute constructively, although it's obviously appreciated. As for new arguments, the reason I was hoping for one from you is that you never responded after your original two were pointed out as incorrect...Zelda games most definitely do not unanimously refer to multi-word (or single-word) nouns as proper nouns, and the search function works regardless of capitalization. The reason I see new treatment of the few words in question as superior to the way things are now is that the way we're treating them now is grammatically incorrect for no reason other than that this is "what is usually done". If there are other, good reasons, I am interested in hearing them (hence my asking for "new" comments from you). ::@ Jedi: Just making sure I understand your post; are you saying you'd prefer a standard whereby all multi-word nouns would be either upper-cased or lower-cased, regardless of the specifics of the word in question? Knives182 (talk) 02:49, September 12, 2011 (UTC) :::Yes. Specifically, I would prefer to see everything in lowercase because a) the proposed guidelines would inconsistent to anyone who doesn't know the rule, b) determining which subjects are unique based on articles would likely lead to confusion, c) lowercase is more grammatically correct for non-proper nouns, and d) using lowercase links is more consistent with how we link to single-word pages (I know I already said all four of those elsewhere, but I thought saying everything I think now in one place would be good). Also, I have since found that AK is half-right about the search function. The one on the main page accepts lowercase searches, but the search function we get redirected to when we input a page that doesn't exist only accepts whatever capitalization is actually used in the page title. Jedimasterlink (talk) 06:15, September 12, 2011 (UTC)